im just wondering who the oldest poster here is?
I'm pretty high up there with you older lot. I will be 65 in Jan and will enjoy, I am sure, being a burden to the tax payers when I start collecting the pension. Of course thats only if there is enough cash in the kitty.....I mean what with the war and all...
The prime Minister may tell me: "Get outta the pool and back ter work you bludger"
Of course I'm only a kid just off the block as far as postings. Less than a year.
Cheers
who will resurrect of the dead: jehovah or jesus?
according to the society?
according to scripture?
According to the WTS this is the exclusive domain of "Jehoover" god. This is what the "Aid" book, pg 1394 says: "For the One [note the capital O] with the ability and power to create man in His [note the capital H] own image, with a perfect body, it would be pose no insurmountable problem to resurrect an indivisual" On the same page the book adds: "Only through Jesus Christ can resurrection with everlasting life thereafter, be possible"
So, in summary the resurrection is done by Jehoover through Christ - according to the WTS
The Bible though, says differently.
1 It is true that the Scriptures teach that God carries this out: "We trust in God, who raises the dead" [2Cor 1:9] In the OT, affirmation is given of Yahweh who: "Brings down to Sheol, and who also raises up" [1Sam 2:6] It was a fundamental teaching of the early church that God raised Jesus [ Act 2:24, 3:15, 4:10, 5:30, 10:40, 5:30, 10:40, 13:30-34 etc..]
So we can safely say, as the WTS says, that God is the One who performs the resurrection The problem now is to define "God"......
2 Because the story does not end there. We are forced to confront other statements regarding this doctrine. Jesus very clearly stated: "Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, I Myself will raise him up on the last day" [Note He does not say "Jehoover through me...."
He also said: "I Am the resurrection and the life" Christ doesn't simply perform it through the agency of someone else. He is the resurrection. It is His voice the dead will hear when they are reunited with their physical bodies [Jo 5:28,29]
Interestingly, the Bible definitely affirms that the person resurrected by God/Christ is exactly the same as the one who died. Yet the "Aid" book says on the same page quoted above: "The Creator will repattern the same personality in a newly formed body"
So in summary, the Bible's point of view appears to be a joint and equal partnership between the Father and the Son. There is no rivalry nor is there confusion.
Cheers
a former good friend of mine (devout jw still) came into where i work.
i knew she was there, so i went right up to her and said, "hi".
she said "hi" with sort of a sick look on her face, and i said "how are you?".
My very first shunning occured on, of all places, an escalator. I was gliding up and this elder whom I knew very well was coming down. I grinned widely and mouthed the word "Hi"
The rotten so-and-so [forgive me, Lord] simultaneously managed to look at me - as well as through me - which is a curious trait that only the followers of the WTS have so far perfected. It was so weird. We passed, silently, with none else aware of the incident. This would have been ' 85, some 3 weeks after my letter of disassociation.
A half forgotten memory that only serves to confirm that my decision to get away from these people was a correct one. Incidently, never saw that rotten so-and-so [forgive me Lord] again
Cheers
the two letters [lp] in the subject title mean [large print].. this book was previously listed on [ re-examine ], however, the older pdf would not magnify properly for viewing.
this is a new scan in a larger resolution.
click on the link below and when the next page appears scroll down to the bottom and look to your left for a [ yellow and orange button ] to appear, then click that download button.
Thanks again, Atlantis. I had downloaded a copy from the reorganised.org site. But your edition is crystal clear and much easier to read.
Ta, matey.
As you say, its onwards again
Cheers
many people wonder about this vision and why the disciples witnessed it and what does the appearance of moses & elijah mean?
i have my own opinion which i will post later but i was wondering what others thought about it?
lilly
OOps... I goofed. My last sentence should read "......yet appeared in [not" is"] some way that integrates...."
I only discovered this after I pressed the "submit" button.
Mea culpa
many people wonder about this vision and why the disciples witnessed it and what does the appearance of moses & elijah mean?
i have my own opinion which i will post later but i was wondering what others thought about it?
lilly
The Transfiguration is described, with variations in the acounts, by all three Synoptics. Each chooses to tell the account in its own way and according to its paticular purpose.[Matt 17, Mar 9, Lu 9]
The most controversial part of the narrative is, as has been pointed out above, the appearance of Moses and Elijah, and their apparently being alive at this event. This raises the question: Was this simply an auditory/visual sensory perception [a vision] or was it indeed an actual, factual event?
I remember discussing this with several others some years ago, with an Evangelical point of view in mind. I recall someone pointing out how limited our understanding of celestially based events are on our human senses.For instance, one can point to something similar occuring to the apostle Paul. He recounts an incident where a man [probably autobiographical] experienced a deeply moving spiritual occurance, in which he was transported to the "third heaven" [2Cor 12:1]
His inability to distinguish a vision from a factual event when it came to heavenly glory, may well be a parallel to the Transfiguration.To the carnally based opinions of the WTS this is simply a matter of either/or. To them, since Moses and Elijah are non-existant, it had to be a vision. Simple. Therefore what was occuring was in fact an unreality, merely a perception of the senses.
However, the case of Paul shows us how, in the case of celestially based phenomena, there is a third possibility beyond natural human perceptions, hence incapable of any rational explanation. Where the two, vision, and reality actually combine to create something that cannot be explained in human correspondancies. A third possibility that is both vision and fact, a possibility that explains the reality of Moses and Elijah's presence, with the mystification that comes with inexplicability.
So yes, the WTS is right in suggesting the Transfiguration was a vision. But it was'nt only a vision,for behind it, in some way unknown to us, may be a potent reality that unveils the existence of something beyond the physical. Moses and Elijah, who exist in a dimension beyond the normal, could therefore have very well be real, yet appeared, is some way that integrates the normal and the paranormal, as a sensory perception.
Cheers
since modern music keeps coming up, we need to address the classical!
what are your favorite pieces and the artists?
if you play an instrument, pick the piece that's your favorite to play or you wish you could play.. r.. my favorite is fantasy impromtu by chopin.
Sibelius. Symph no 2 in D Op 43. You can almost hear the artic breezes blowing in as the horns and strings combine, especially in the third movement.
Cheers
i am speaking with a wonderful person about the jehovah's witnesses and she has asked myself and my wife who we think the "agency" that fulfills the lord's will upon the earth is.
my question is, do the jehovah's witnesses think that their watchtower organization is this "agency" or is it christ's church on the earth.
furthermore, where is the scripture reference that this is taken from.
Hi, Descmh and welcome to the board. Your question can be posed in another way: When Jesus died who did He put in charge? The WTS? or Someone else? What did Jesus Himself say?
The clearest statement that Jesus made regarding this is found in His Upper Room Discourse [which takes up chs 13-17 in John] when He assured that with His departure He would not leave them orphans.
In Jo 16:7, He tells them that when He is gone He will "send Him to You" He identifies this "Him" as the "Helper" or the Holy Spirit. The one who now believes in the Christ and the work He has laid out must then acknowledge that it is this Holy Spirit who now is in '' charge" or "directs" this work
Interestingly, it now becomes a matter of interpretation as to how the Holy Spirit discharges this reponsibility. That He does so directly is plain by Jesus' further words when He says: "He will guide you, teach you..etc''
The WTS, on the other hand, implies, that since they are god's "spirit directed" organisation they are the ones in charge, thus, almost imperceptably, causing a shift in emphasis from the Holy Spirit directly, to themselves - thus making the Holy Spirit an indirect source of authority. This mutation of the words of Scripture is a well publicised trait of their's.
So... in answer to your question, you may gracefully, and tactfully point out to you your WT follower friend, that when Christ died He left no man, or body of men acting as a man in charge. That is the exclusive domain of the Helper. One of the traits that will identify the authority of the Holy Spirit is that He glorifies neither Himself nor someone that the WTS calls "jehover" He will glorify Jesus. Personally. Not as representing anyone, "jehoover" or otherwise. [Jo 16:14]
Now all your friend needs to do is look.
Cheers
as all faithful witnesses to jehovah the most high god well knowjohn 3:13 ).
does anyone have any idea where enoch went.....since he never died?.
the author of the letter to the hebrews says "by faith enoch was transferred, that he should not see death, and was not found, because god had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased god well.
Sorry, Gumby, the fault is entirely mine. I did not make myself clear. I was not implying that there was some sort of esotertic meaning to the word "ascend" beyond that which is clearly recognized in a dictionary. My intention, rather, was to stress the voluntary nature of Christ's going up to heaven in contrast to others who may have gone before.
Whereas Enoch and Elijah were "taken" to heaven even guided there, they did not proceed on their own steam, as it were. That is why the Biblical text does not use the word "ascend" in their case. I feel that is what Christ was indicating at Jo 3:13. He was the first indeed to ascend under His own steam, under his own volution.
As to the part about His having been the first to go both ways, this may not of course be inherently implied in the meaning of "ascend" but notice Jesus' words at this text: "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, [even] the Son of Man" [NASV]
The uniqueness of Christ is that His ascension to heaven was voluntary, in His own iherent power, implied in the word "ascend" - and that it is a two-way process, as indicated by His own words.
Cheers
as all faithful witnesses to jehovah the most high god well knowjohn 3:13 ).
does anyone have any idea where enoch went.....since he never died?.
the author of the letter to the hebrews says "by faith enoch was transferred, that he should not see death, and was not found, because god had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased god well.
There is another possible explanation that sits quite comfortably with the idea that Enoch was indeed "taken" [or "translated"] to heaven. It lies in divining the meaning of "ascending".
At Jo 3:13 the word does not just mean "going up" but "going up while once being up there" No one, according to the claim made by Jesus, has been in heaven and come down here and gone back up there having completed His task. I suppose in this sense we can call Jesus the "ladder" between heaven and earth with access to both realms. He descended at the Incarnation. And "ascended" at the Ascension.
So, most evangelicals believe that while Enoch may have been the first to be "taken" to heaven, Christ was the first and only one to go both ways voluntarily.
Cheers
